GNU bug report logs - #24102
Use guile variable objects as SRFI-111 boxes.

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Glenn Michaels" <gmichaels <at> Safe-mail.net>
To: bug-guile <at> gnu.org
Subject: Use guile variable objects as SRFI-111 boxes.
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 05:21:53 -0400

Currently, guile's (srfi srfi-111) module ("mutable boxes") provides
an implementation based on records with a single value field.

Wouldn't it make more sense to re-export the functions make-variable,
variable?, variable-ref and variable-set! from the guile core as box,
box?, unbox and set-box! respectively?

These functions have the same signatures and the same semantics as
required by the SRFI-111 spec., and they appear to be significantly
faster than the current record-based implementation.

Moreover, SRFI-111 boxes and guile variable objects are clearly
semantically the same thing. It's bad enough having two names for the
same thing, without having two implementations too.

Reference: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-111/srfi-111.html

Message #8 received at 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Glenn Michaels" <gmichaels <at> Safe-mail.net>
To: 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#24102: Use guile variable objects as SRFI-111 boxes.
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 06:25:56 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Trivial patch implementing this suggestion attached.

[srfi-111.patch (text/x-diff, attachment)]

Message #13 received at 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andy Wingo <wingo <at> pobox.com>
To: "Glenn Michaels" <gmichaels <at> Safe-mail.net>
Cc: 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24102: Use guile variable objects as SRFI-111 boxes.
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 22:59:33 +0200

On Tue 02 Aug 2016 12:25, "Glenn Michaels" <gmichaels <at> Safe-mail.net> writes:

> Trivial patch implementing this suggestion attached.
>
> --- a/module/srfi/srfi-111.scm
> +++ b/module/srfi/srfi-111.scm
> @@ -17,21 +17,9 @@
>  ;; Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA
>  
>  (define-module (srfi srfi-111)
> -  #:use-module (srfi srfi-9)
> -  #:use-module (srfi srfi-9 gnu)
> -  #:export (box box? unbox set-box!))
> +  #:re-export ((make-variable . box)
> +               (variable? . box?)
> +               (variable-ref . unbox)
> +               (variable-set! . set-box!)))
>  
>  (cond-expand-provide (current-module) '(srfi-111))

I like it.  Let me check in with Mark and see if there's any reason to
keep it like it is.

Andy

Message #16 received at 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mark H Weaver <mhw <at> netris.org>
To: "Glenn Michaels" <gmichaels <at> Safe-mail.net>
Cc: Andy Wingo <wingo <at> pobox.com>, 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24102: Use guile variable objects as SRFI-111 boxes.
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 00:31:39 -0400

Hi Glenn,

"Glenn Michaels" <gmichaels <at> Safe-mail.net> writes:
> Currently, guile's (srfi srfi-111) module ("mutable boxes") provides
> an implementation based on records with a single value field.
>
> Wouldn't it make more sense to re-export the functions make-variable,
> variable?, variable-ref and variable-set! from the guile core as box,
> box?, unbox and set-box! respectively?
>
> These functions have the same signatures and the same semantics as
> required by the SRFI-111 spec., and they appear to be significantly
> faster than the current record-based implementation.
>
> Moreover, SRFI-111 boxes and guile variable objects are clearly
> semantically the same thing.

Unfortunately, they are not quite the same thing.  Unlike SRFI-111
boxes, Guile variables are a union type: they contain an arbitrary
Scheme value, *or* they may be "unbound".  For such a simple data type,
this added complication is semantically quite significant.

As a result, some important properties of SRFI-111 boxes do not hold for
your proposed implementation.  For example, in SRFI-111, (box? x)
implies that (box-ref x) will not raise an exception, and this fact can
be exploited by a compiler to produce better native code for 'box-ref'
when the type of its argument is known to be a box.  In such cases, I
guess 'box-ref' can be implemented as a single load instruction, whereas
'variable-ref' will require a conditional branch.

Especially for such a simple and fundamental data type, I think it's
important to retain precisely the specified semantics, without *any*
additional complexity.  For this reason, I am opposed to this change.

What do you think?

    Regards,
      Mark

Message #19 received at 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mark H Weaver <mhw <at> netris.org>
To: "Glenn Michaels" <gmichaels <at> Safe-mail.net>
Cc: Andy Wingo <wingo <at> pobox.com>, 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24102: Use guile variable objects as SRFI-111 boxes.
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 00:37:40 -0400

Mark H Weaver <mhw <at> netris.org> writes:

> As a result, some important properties of SRFI-111 boxes do not hold for
> your proposed implementation.  For example, in SRFI-111, (box? x)
> implies that (box-ref x) will not raise an exception, and this fact can
> be exploited by a compiler to produce better native code for 'box-ref'
> when the type of its argument is known to be a box.  In such cases, I
> guess 'box-ref' can be implemented as a single load instruction, whereas
> 'variable-ref' will require a conditional branch.

s/box-ref/unbox/g

     Mark

Message #22 received at 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Glenn Michaels" <gmichaels <at> Safe-mail.net>
To: mhw <at> netris.org
Cc: wingo <at> pobox.com, 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24102: Use guile variable objects as SRFI-111 boxes.
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 09:07:26 -0400

Sorry for the delayed response.

Mark H Weaver <mhw <at> netris.org> writes:
> > Moreover, SRFI-111 boxes and guile variable objects are clearly
> > semantically the same thing.

> Unfortunately, they are not quite the same thing.  Unlike SRFI-111
> boxes, Guile variables are a union type: they contain an arbitrary
> Scheme value, *or* they may be "unbound".  For such a simple data type,
> this added complication is semantically quite significant.
> As a result, some important properties of SRFI-111 boxes do not hold for
> your proposed implementation.  For example, in SRFI-111, (box? x)
> implies that (box-ref x) will not raise an exception

You're right. They aren't exactly the same, it would be more correct
to say that boxes are equivalent to bound variables. Thus box? should
be defined as:

(define (box? o) (and (variable? o) (variable-bound? o)))

That way, (box-ref o) is guaranteed to work whenever (box? o) holds.

I'm suggesting that in current versions of Guile, implementing
SRFI-111 boxes via variables is faster that the current implementation
using records. With the definition of box? as above, it would be
semantically correct.

If a future guile compiler can implement boxes more efficiently in a
different representation, there's nothing to stop you switching to
that representation when the time comes. Making this simple change now
doesn't prevent you from doing something different in future. I'm not
suggesting that you should necessarily *guarantee* that boxes will always 
be implemented using variables.

> this fact can be exploited by a compiler to produce better native code for
> 'box-ref' when the type of its argument is known to be a box.  In such cases,
> I guess 'box-ref' can be implemented as a single load instruction, whereas
> 'variable-ref' will require a conditional branch.

With respect to what you say about compiler optimizations: In order to
implement a given call to unbox with a single load instruction, the
compiler would have to prove that the argument is a box, i.e. that it
satisfies the box? predicate.

You could also implement calls to variable-ref with a single
load instruction in cases where the compiler can prove that the
argument is a bound variable, i.e. that it satisfies
(and (variable? o) (variable-bound? o)) -- precisely the definition of
box? above.

Therefore it seems to me that whether you can perform this
optimization or not in a given case depends not so much on whether
boxes and variables are distinct types, but on how much information the
compiler can infer statically about each variable (in the general sense)
reference at a given point the program.

However, this discussing is academic insomuch as AFAICT the
current guile compiler currently performs neither optimization.

Message #25 received at 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mark H Weaver <mhw <at> netris.org>
To: "Glenn Michaels" <gmichaels <at> Safe-mail.net>
Cc: wingo <at> pobox.com, 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24102: Use guile variable objects as SRFI-111 boxes.
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 12:14:24 -0400

"Glenn Michaels" <gmichaels <at> Safe-mail.net> writes:

> Sorry for the delayed response.
>
> Mark H Weaver <mhw <at> netris.org> writes:
>> > Moreover, SRFI-111 boxes and guile variable objects are clearly
>> > semantically the same thing.
>
>> Unfortunately, they are not quite the same thing.  Unlike SRFI-111
>> boxes, Guile variables are a union type: they contain an arbitrary
>> Scheme value, *or* they may be "unbound".  For such a simple data type,
>> this added complication is semantically quite significant.
>> As a result, some important properties of SRFI-111 boxes do not hold for
>> your proposed implementation.  For example, in SRFI-111, (box? x)
>> implies that (box-ref x) will not raise an exception
>
> You're right. They aren't exactly the same, it would be more correct
> to say that boxes are equivalent to bound variables. Thus box? should
> be defined as:
>
> (define (box? o) (and (variable? o) (variable-bound? o)))
>
> That way, (box-ref o) is guaranteed to work whenever (box? o) holds.

The problem is, a variable that is bound can later become unbound.  In
SRFI 111, if (box? x) is _ever_ true, then it will always remain true.
With your proposed definition above, that is not the case.  Whether a
variable is bound is part of its mutable state.

> If a future guile compiler can implement boxes more efficiently in a
> different representation, there's nothing to stop you switching to
> that representation when the time comes.

If we adopted your suggestion, it's likely that some users would come to
rely on the fact that boxes are actually variables, with this extra
"feature" of supporting the "unbound" state, and then we wouldn't be
able to remove that feature without breaking existing code.

>> this fact can be exploited by a compiler to produce better native code for
>> 'box-ref' when the type of its argument is known to be a box.  In such cases,
>> I guess 'box-ref' can be implemented as a single load instruction, whereas
>> 'variable-ref' will require a conditional branch.
>
> With respect to what you say about compiler optimizations: In order to
> implement a given call to unbox with a single load instruction, the
> compiler would have to prove that the argument is a box, i.e. that it
> satisfies the box? predicate.

Right, and the compiler that will be in Guile 2.2.x already has the
ability to perform this kind of type inference.

> You could also implement calls to variable-ref with a single
> load instruction in cases where the compiler can prove that the
> argument is a bound variable, i.e. that it satisfies
> (and (variable? o) (variable-bound? o)) -- precisely the definition of
> box? above.

It would very rarely be possible to prove that in practice, because the
"bound"-ness of a variable can change with time, and because in Scheme
it is very common to call procedures whose body is unknown at
compile-time, during which the bound-ness of the variable could change.
This is not a problem with SRFI-111 boxes, which will never change to
anything else.

> However, this discussing is academic insomuch as AFAICT the
> current guile compiler currently performs neither optimization.

As I wrote above, the current guile compiler can already do this kind of
type inference, although it does not currently do this for boxes.
However, we can already anticipate having native code generation in the
next couple of years, and we must keep boxes semantically simple so that
our future compiler will be able to generate good code for this very
important fundamental type.

Does that make sense?

       Mark

Message #28 received at 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andy Wingo <wingo <at> pobox.com>
To: Mark H Weaver <mhw <at> netris.org>
Cc: 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Glenn Michaels <gmichaels <at> Safe-mail.net>
Subject: Re: bug#24102: Use guile variable objects as SRFI-111 boxes.
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 11:03:05 +0200

On Thu 18 Aug 2016 18:14, Mark H Weaver <mhw <at> netris.org> writes:

> As I wrote above, the current guile compiler can already do this kind of
> type inference, although it does not currently do this for boxes.
> we can already anticipate having native code generation in the
> next couple of years, and we must keep boxes semantically simple so that
> our future compiler will be able to generate good code for this very
> important fundamental type.

For what it's worth, I don't see the optimization argument as weighing
very heavily on this discussion.  I would rather have fewer fundamental
data types rather than more, in the next two years or so.  I see the
mid-term result here being that SRFI-111 boxes are much slower than
variables.

The highest performance compilation tier we can imagine would include
adaptive optimization, and when it runs you can know that the variables
that a bit of code uses are bound or not.  Also in that case we can
reasonably make any call to variable-unset! deoptimize any code that
uses variables, forcing it to reoptimize later.  Since variable-unset!
is quite rare this is no big deal I think.

Andy

Message #31 received at 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andy Wingo <wingo <at> pobox.com>
To: Mark H Weaver <mhw <at> netris.org>
Cc: 24102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Glenn Michaels <gmichaels <at> Safe-mail.net>
Subject: Re: bug#24102: Use guile variable objects as SRFI-111 boxes.
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 09:51:29 +0100

On Wed 31 Aug 2016 11:03, Andy Wingo <wingo <at> pobox.com> writes:

> On Thu 18 Aug 2016 18:14, Mark H Weaver <mhw <at> netris.org> writes:
>
>> As I wrote above, the current guile compiler can already do this kind of
>> type inference, although it does not currently do this for boxes.
>> we can already anticipate having native code generation in the
>> next couple of years, and we must keep boxes semantically simple so that
>> our future compiler will be able to generate good code for this very
>> important fundamental type.
>
> For what it's worth, I don't see the optimization argument as weighing
> very heavily on this discussion.  I would rather have fewer fundamental
> data types rather than more, in the next two years or so.  I see the
> mid-term result here being that SRFI-111 boxes are much slower than
> variables.
>
> The highest performance compilation tier we can imagine would include
> adaptive optimization, and when it runs you can know that the variables
> that a bit of code uses are bound or not.  Also in that case we can
> reasonably make any call to variable-unset! deoptimize any code that
> uses variables, forcing it to reoptimize later.  Since variable-unset!
> is quite rare this is no big deal I think.

Following up here :)  So again I think the optimization argument is not
so important; if that were the only consideration then IMO the balance
of things would be that we should apply Glenn's patch.

There is a semantic consideration as well -- box-ref on a box created by
make-box should never throw an exception, and code that uses the
SRFI-111 should be able to rely on this.  We should probably not
introduce a gratuitous incompatibility here.  I propose to add a flag to
variables indicating that certain variables may not be unset.  We can
also consider reversing this, in that only variables with the flag can
be unset; my understanding is that the only user of variable-unset! is
the Elisp language on variables that it creates, so that would be
acceptable too.

Andy

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